My Meta Musings on Marian

[vanillalime]

[Do you ever experience the utter inability to properly organize your thoughts and transcribe them into words? I actually tried writing most of this post several days ago, but for some reason my brain kept short-circuiting. Ugh. I hope the end result is here is relatively coherent.]

As most of you probably noticed, there were several new pieces of Oz fic posted at hardtime100 last week! Yay!

Interestingly, a couple of them focused on Toby's relationship with post-parole "girlfriend" Marian (and a third one invoked the infamous Socks Visit). Although Marian is a never-seen character who's mentioned only a couple of times (and only once by name), her mere existence has always rubbed me wrong way. So, when trillingstar's story portrayed her in a relatively sympathetic light, I commented on how unnatural it was for me to be feeling sorry for her given how much I hate her. To which she replied:

What did Marian do that was hateworthy? Like I know some people think that she gets in the way of an OTP. But was she actually, actively horrible in some way?

Which got me thinking (probably a little too much)... Why DO I hate Marian? What exactly DID she do that was so hateworthy?

And the short answer is... nothing. Except siphon Toby's affections away from Chris, I guess, but Toby's feelings toward Chris were bound to fade away anyway, new girlfriend or not, as Toby tried to move on with his life. I suppose the worst thing you could say about canon Marian is that she showed really bad judgment by dating the father of one of her students, which is, yeah, not very professional, but hey, maybe I'd find it hard to resist Toby's charms too. *g* I guess the person I really should be angry with here is Toby, but it's easier to push those feelings onto someone else.

[I think, too, that I sometimes mentally confuse Marian's persona with that of Katherine McClain's, as the two characters raise some of the same questions. When I first watched Oz, I wondered why an intelligent, educated, professional woman like Katherine would allow herself to get mixed up emotionally with someone like Toby, who had SO much baggage. I developed a theory, one that I've long held in my head, that Katherine was most likely a gold-digger who was primarily interested in Toby for (1) the Beecher family money and/or (2) a position in his father's law firm (and the fact that it was established in canon that she was a rather incompetent lawyer lends real credence to this latter possibility). So when it comes to Marian, I think I tend to project the qualities of evil!Katherine onto her, making her evil!Marian by default. Although, it's also possible that Marian was just as much a gold-digger as Katherine was. In which case, my dislike of her, as with Katherine, is therefore completely justifed.]

HOWEVER... I also have a theory (one that I remember briefly discussing with drsquidlove at some point last year) where paroled!Toby presented a lot of things much differently than how they actually were, including his so-called relationship with Marian. So when trillingstar went on to say:

I have a headcanon that Toby made her up entirely, or at the very least made up 98% of their interaction. HAH!

... I was like "Yes, yes! YES!!! Theory twins!" *high-fives*

I developed my Make-Believe Marian theory long ago after several painful viewings of the Socks Visit where I analyzed both what was said and how it was said:

• Toby is clearly lying when he gives in to Chris's request and says that he'll bring his kids in to meet him sometime, as he's obviously uncomfortable with the idea.


• Right after that, there's an awkward moment when Chris looks at Toby and asks him if he's been drinking, and Toby answers no. But based on (1) the way that Lee played that scene and (2) the way the camera was directed, I have always assumed that Toby was lying there, too, or at the very least we were supposed to wonder if he was. (And with Toby's addictive personality, it would make complete sense that he would fall off the wagon once his brain was no longer preoccupied with getting Chris off death row.)


• Chris then digs for information about Marian and, after a weird, nervous deflection, Toby acknowledges that he's dating her. After further pushing from Chris, Toby admits he's slept with her. But if Toby is lying about wanting Chris to meet his kids, and the drinking, I don't think think it's much of a stretch to believe that he was also lying about the true nature of his relationship with Marian.

Now, why would Toby lie and want to pretend that he and Marian were together? Well, maybe Chris put him on the defensive with the question about the drinking. Maybe Toby lied a lot before he was sent to prison and was falling back into his old ways. Maybe he just wanted to hurt Chris.

But mostly I tend to think that Toby wanted to convince himself that he was moving on, and that he thought this was the expected, acceptable, "normal" behavior for someone in his situation, whereas his reality was something entirely different. When you think about it, between the sudden loss of his father (for which it could be said that Toby is partially to blame) and the sudden inclusion of Harry, his family life has to be a bit of a mess. Rather than the sanitized version of paroled!Toby that we got from Fontana, I'm inclined to believe that Toby was a big ol' basketcase, completely freaked out by what was going on, and using his old crutches (drinking, lying) to get by. At least, it explains Toby's surprising behavior of (supposedly) fucking around with first young woman available to him and spending his time at a cocktail party.

Whoa, this got long! Anyway, I felt like I needed to get this off my chest and just thought I'd share.

Comments

[mazephoenix.livejournal.com]

For some reason I recall a funny Televison without pity comment about Marian and how unlikley it is that she'd sleep with Toby.
"She's a virginal school teacher and he's an ex-convict with a swastika on his ass." LOL.
I like the theory about her not being real.
I've written her being nice at times.

[macaroncey.livejournal.com]

"She's a virginal school teacher and he's an ex-convict with a swastika on his ass." This is really good and funny XD

[trillingstar]

Yeah, I have trouble believing that they'd actually progressed to the point of nakedness already. How long was Toby even out for? A few months, maybe? If she was ~virginal~ (or at the very least, young and prim, as fanon makes her out to be)... maybe it was some kind of dangerslut fantasy on her part. I just never had the feeling that Toby was ever all that suave with the ladiez, yanno? And with so very many other things on his plate... as gross as this sounds, maybe sex with her was some kind of stress release for him (if she existed at all, koff), or -- or -- idk. I mean, clearly Toby was great at making bad choices... but Holly's teacher? One of the handful of people who Holly probably trusted, or at least felt comfortable around. THANKS DAD.

[vanillalime]

maybe it was some kind of dangerslut fantasy on her part

Oooh, just like "Looking for Mr. Goodbar"! That could be an interesting twist.

[vanillalime]

I miss the old TWoP, back in the days of good snarky recaps and page after page of comments after a favorite show's episode had aired. That place was really my first introduction into fandom. It's a shame they let it shrivel up and die.

I've written her being nice at times.

See, I should appreciate that more. There are enough characters in Oz that deserve my hate, I shouldn't be looking for more of them.

[mazephoenix.livejournal.com]

I know. I loved it back in the day when I watched Smallville, and Buffy. Ah, those were great recaps.
Yes, Oz is full of hateful people, and people who do terrible things, yet we still love them. Ahem..Keller.

[red-titan.livejournal.com]

I still cringe when I think about that sock scene. It was so painful to watch. Out of all the shocking, memorable scenes in Oz, that one particularly stuck with me for some reason.

Anyway, I thought Toby was being brutally honest to the point of being callous in that episode. I mean the guy was a lawyer for pete's sake; that was the time to lie convincingly to Chris. That was the time to deny that he wasn't seeing anyone, much less fucking his kid's teacher. A little more tact perhaps? He was the only one Chris had at that point; I couldn't blame Chris for doing what he did.

Toby's feelings toward Chris were bound to fade away anyway, new girlfriend or not, as Toby tried to move on with his life.-----> *sobs uncontrollably* Noooooo....that's not true. lol.

[vanillalime]

One of the reasons why I find Toby so fascinating (he's my favorite Oz character), is that he has this desire to be a good person, to not make waves and do the right thing, but then that determination is so often ruined by his alternate personality of basically being an asshole. And those contradictions are perfectly encapsulated in the post-parole visit with Chris. I don't think he set out to be hurtful toward Chris, but for whatever reason, he couldn't stop himself.

(One of my favorite scenes in the show is the one where Toby's interviewed by the reporter and says, "I'm not the man I was. Or maybe I'm the man I was and never knew." I think it sums his situation up perfectly, and I love how self-aware he is right there.)

Thanks for contributing you thoughts here!

[macaroncey.livejournal.com]

I had more problems with Katherine than with Marian, I should confess. Mostly for how Toby was with her (Katherine), how he flirted with her. He seems so old, ancient even. When Toby flirted with Chris in s2 he was awkard, cute (and I liked him with Gen) but with Katherine is so old - fashioned in not a good way. I really hated them together but I loved how their relationship showed us a lot of Toby, how he is a little ball of contradictions (because really, especially in the beginning, a moment he is all "Oh Pete I miss my boyfriend soooooo muuuuch! So much that I don't want go to shower never again because shower is bad without naked Chris!" and the moment after "We can date together and drink a lot of champagne" even if an addicted!). I think that Katherine liked Toby because he was a safe choice, in part. Ok he was a con that is bad, but not a killer, and he was sad and broken and he wanted to be loved (from her Pov) so after her lying husband he was a safe place. And maybe she had a good samaritan syndrome.
I liked Marian in the beginning, when for the first time Toby talks about her I can picture her. This smart and funny woman that makes Toby laugh and for which he has a little crush. I'm happy for Toby, I hate him for be happy not with Chris (sorry) but I'm happy. But during the "sock visit" to Chris the relationship between Toby and Marian seems out of contest, too much. Maybe because I don't know from how they were dating and how long Toby was out of Oz but "so soon, Toby? After Oz, Vern, Chris?". And when he says that he and Marion are sleeping together seems so unnatural, like he wants to prove something to himself (that he moved on, like when he flirted with Katherine because Chris was a Cedar J and he wanted move on from him, from men, from be himfelf maybe), and to Chris too. I think that a part of Toby is really moving out at this point, Holly and work where is still good, but inside he is still a mess (and it's normal) and maybe this is the reason for which he pushes when he tells to Chris about the sex with Marian and their relationship, and the reason for which he goes to takes the drugs for Bonnie. He isn't good to wait to feel better, Toby always pushes himself in something (good or bad). It's always "too much" with him.

[trillingstar]

Well. Toby was a killer. Maybe not premeditated spree killings, but, he had killed. I was saying to Maze that maybe some of the Marian/Toby "thing" was some kind of dangerslut fantasy on Marian's part, and I can see that same kind of thing in Katherine; also, as you said, because Toby was basically 'safe.' He came from a "good" family, he had custody of his kids, he was booksmart, he wasn't addicted to heroin. Katherine has low expectations I guess? haha. I still think it is very odd and unprofessional to bang your client, but I suppose it makes for better drama. :P

I was happy (at first) about Marian too because (to me) it meant that Toby wasn't curled up in the fetal position under the covers; he was ~living. I liked that he was making friends outside of his immediate family. But then... dun dun dun. As you said, it seemed like too much too soon. And it felt like a weird kind of bragging, like he was simultaneously trying to draw Chris in and impress him, and then also telling him to back off. Like, 'here's a lover you can't kill,' mixed with 'btw I was only gay for you and I still am,' with a dash of 'no really I'm fine no really REALLY.' ...when obvs. he was not, and in a weird way I think Chris picked up on the part where Toby was *not* fine, which (crazily) supported Chris's idea to "bring" Toby back to Oz.

[vanillalime]

and in a weird way I think Chris picked up on the part where Toby was *not* fine

And that makes a lot of sense, given Chris's exceptional ability to analyze and read people. Hence, "It's all for the best, Toby."

[vanillalime]

Yeah, Toby's relationship with Katherine sort of came out of nowhere. The only way it made sense (to me) from Toby's point of view is that it fed somehow into his addictive tendencies. At this point, he was able to say no to alcohol, drugs, and promiscuous sex, but maybe the thought of (supposedly) being in love with someone (someone who he came in regular contact with, unlike Chris) was satisfying some sort of emotional high that he was craving.

maybe this is the reason for which he pushes when he tells to Chris about the sex with Marian and their relationship, and the reason for which he goes to takes the drugs for Bonnie.

I love theories on why Toby decided to get those drugs for Bonnie. I mean, surely he HAD to know that there was a least a chance Chris was setting him up, given the way that whole visit went down. Did he subconsciously crave the structure of Oz, and the absence of having to deal with the emotional havoc he had wrecked on his own family? Was he just trying to test Chris somehow, to see if he'd really go through with it? Or was he just really that clueless about Chris's feelings and what he was capable of? So many interesting possibilities...

I appreciate you taking the time to express your thoughts on these subjects! I'm sorry it took me so long to respond.

[drsquidlove.livejournal.com]

Ha. I'm also on the 'Maybe Marion is fictional' boat. (Do I really have to spell it 'Marian'? Is that canon? I do not like that spelling.) And my current story, if I ever finish it, will reflect that.

For me it's just... I know it's convenient for the storyline, but I find it absurd how an emotionally-damaged felon with a boyfriend in the joint can be lining up women like a Rolling Stones after party.

I don't have a problem with either woman as a person, except for the unlikelihood of the relationships. At least Marion is offscreen, so maybe there was a quirky-rom-com way for them to come together. Though I agree with all the comments above, it seems unlikely.

I never see any reason for Katherine to develop an interest in Toby, unless she's a nutter with a thing for convicts who's fallen in love/obsession with a lot of men she released which come to think of it would be an awesome story.

I take massive issue with Toby, that although he barely knows Katherine, he treats her like family and kisses her in front of Holly. Toby, maybe you should get to know this virtual stranger outside of prison visits, and make sure your relationship has some stability, before you start teaching your emotionally-wrecked eight year-old that this is her new mommy.

I don't have a problem with it on the Chris front. I'd always assumed Chris pushed him to have a life - including a woman - on the outside. How sincerely Chris intended that, I could go either way. But I don't doubt for a second Chris would have shagged all three of his wives, or that he would have been open about it with Toby.

And whether or not Toby was telling the truth, I just don't think those visits could ever have gone well. There's nothing Toby could have said to Chris that would have made Chris okay with Toby being out. Being cautiously happy hurt Chris. Being miserable would have given justification for Chris to yank him back in. No win.

S.

[mazephoenix.livejournal.com]

I have no idea what the canon spelling for her name is either. Ha. I wrote it as "Marion" because I saw it in other fic..Marian to me is Robin Hood's lady.
Yes, I find Toby pulling two ladies when he has a bf on the inside strange..he's cute, but they both seem to stable to go for him. And the over-familiar stuff with Katherine is bad in front of Holly. God, Toby you are so dense. (but cute).
Yes, no win with Chris. Sigh.
You are doing a new story? Cool.

[vanillalime]

Yay! I guess the three of us are theory triplets! ;-)

I'm pretty sure that there is no canon spelling for Marian/Marion; I was just going with the flow. I've seen it both ways, so you can do whatever you want. (As a matter of fact, the secondary canon of Toby's mother being named "Victoria" still grates on my nerves, because it just doesn't seem to fit her at all. I struggle with the temptation to call her something else just to be deliberately obtuse.)

As far as Katherine goes, I think we were expected to believe that she was doing a lot of things off-screen to immerse herself into Toby's and Holly's lives. I think there was a reference at one point to her taking Holly to Adventure World? ... which I don't think was just down the street, since all the inmates raised money to help send Rebadow's grandson there. But without really being able to see any of that, it's hard to suspend disbelief over her and Toby having some Great Love Story, and the whole situation just comes off as jarring and weird instead.

One thing I do have to give Katherine credit for (ugh), is that she eventually saw through Chris, and she knew better than to get caught up in his games. Somewhere I have notes for a story where she meets Agent Taylor in a bar, and they bond over both being the prey of a sexual psychopath's attempted seductions, not knowing that it's the same person and it's Chris. :D

You made a great point about something that I never realized before... There's animosity in the fandom toward Marion and Katherine, yet I've never really seen any toward Chris's ex-wives, despite Chris being interested in them physically and, at least in Bonnie's case, emotionally. (And people weren't really all that bothered by Chris sleeping with Claire, either; it was almost expected.) That's really interesting! I guess that's just what we expect of Chris the Seduction Machine, whereas Toby is held to higher standards. Hm.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on these subjects! It's much appreciated, and I apologize for my delay in responding to them. (It's already been two weeks?! Yeesh.)

[drsquidlove.livejournal.com]

I don't like Victoria either! It's too formal. And Vicki is too informal. There's no good ground.

I know there were references to Katherine doing family stuff in the outside world, but that's what is so awful to me. Toby knows her from a few visits in an incredibly unnatural environment. I have regular customers I get along with great at work, but before I turned them into to my (hypothetical) kids' new parent, I would find out if our rapport extended beyond selling and purchasing books. Also I would want to see for myself that this person is kind to dogs, and that their house is not a murder basement.

The fact that she's immersing herself in Holly's life without Toby would feed nicely into the story of her being a creepy obsessive who clamps on to desperate inmates with promises of parole, but I don't think I could write it because slash fandom has enough stories where female characters are irrational harpies bent on ruining male lives.

Also, the whole Katherine McClain storyline is stupid because she's there on behalf of a charitable organisation to defend inmates and Toby is frickin' *wealthy*. How about the Beecher family fund Toby's and Chris's legal needs, and leave the charity for people who can't afford it?

Yeah, Chris's ex-wives do get a pass from the usual slasher wife-hate. I don't think I've ever read a negative word about Bonnie. Maybe because they're never seen as in the way of Chris's love for Toby?

Maybe - oh, this is deep - because in the show we always see Chris's sexuality as the source of his power, and Toby's sexuality as his weakness. Every person Chris fucks or flirts with feeds into his masculinity and strength, whereas for Toby it's rape, trickery, self-punishment, and even when he and Chris come together it's kind of... submission to love, burying of pride. So Chris's exes are proof of his irresistibility. Katherine and Marion come across as Toby grasping for normality.

Don't be bothered by your delayed reply! I consider it a polite way to take the pressure off me to get back to you quickly.

S.

[trillingstar]

...any reason for Katherine to develop an interest in Toby...

That has always bothered me too. I guess maybe during their fairly brief lawyer-client meetings, they... um. Talked about, uh. *fifteen-minute interlude of pondering and dismissing ideas* Certainly she came off as a high-energy champion of the people, and Beecher's whole story could have fed into some sort of determined 'I will fix this and you' thing for her. Also his case seemed like one that she thought she could win? But obvs 'you'll help my win percentage' doesn't just translate into 'and we will boink and also I will be your new missus.' Maybe we're just to believe that lawyers get with lawyers as following the natural rules of the universe. She also looked a little like Gen, physically.

re: kissing her in front of Holly -- IKR?! And that was not just a peck on the cheek. Even Holly was like, *eyeroll*.

I can't even remember where I read/heard this, and I am more than likely crossing bits of information here, but supposedly Fontana thought that HBO was going to cancel Oz after the fourth season. And because of that, Toby's happy happy joy dream sequence was filmed twice (once with less psychedelic colouring) and Fontana actually thought about using it as the "ending" to Beecher's storyline.

Dear god.

[drsquidlove.livejournal.com]

Maybe we need a story where Holly must battle the crazy lady insinuating herself into the Beecher family. And she can't tell Dad because Katherine never lets them be alone together.

I can believe Toby wanting her. I'm sure after four years any available, willing woman would look good to him. That she is nice-looking and fits a vision of normalcy would be a dream. This is the only time ever in my life I will say, 'thank goodness that sequence was a dream.'

I've definitely heard reliably... somewhere... that Fontana had that scene for the ending in case the show was cancelled. So I don't know why y'all are sad that he killed Chris in the finale, because Chris dead and Toby framed is a way better ending than that Norman Rockwell rubbish.

S.

[vanillalime]

As I explained to Trillingstar below, Fontana explained the story behind the alternate "dream" ending in the DVD commentary for the episode.

Chris dead and Toby framed is a way better ending than that Norman Rockwell rubbish.

Well, that's especially true if Toby is eventually paroled and hooks up with a sexy, upstanding NYC police detective who just so happens to look exactly like Chris. ;D

[drsquidlove.livejournal.com]

Exactly! Which is exactly what canonically happened.

S.

[vanillalime]

Fontana actually thought about using it as the "ending" to Beecher's storyline.

That's from the episode's DVD commentary with Tom, Lee, and Dean. Tom said that they filmed two different endings for Beecher for that episode: the "happy Toby frolicking through the fields" ending in case the show was cancelled, and the "sad Toby being denied parole" ending in case it wasn't. (I think that's why Toby isn't present in the scene where the mad IRA bomber guy tries to blow up Em City.) When the show was renewed, Fontana decided to use the happy ending as a dream sequence rather than letting it go to waste, because he was so pleased with the way parts of it had turned out. (In particular, the scene in the Em City commons area right after he's been granted parole is really great, there's some wonderful subtle reaction shots from Ryan and Said.)

[trillingstar]

And by 'rush,' I meant amble slowly in this general direction. Apologies, I haven't been feeling too well the past few days; I will re-read & join in the discussion, tomorrow.

[trillingstar]

::shameless c&p from otherfic comments::

Marian was such a strange plot device -- at least we got to *see* Katherine interacting with both Toby and Chris -- and frankly one that's best ignored because really what did she bring to the table. (Correct answer: nothing.) I think that Chris would have found a reason to get Toby back inside even if she'd never existed. IMO Toby acted like a real jackass for bragging about getting laid: one of my theories is that Toby made up Marian, or at least lied about screwing around with her, partly to remind/hurt Chris that Toby wasn't 'really' gay, and partly to be a jerk like 'here's one of my lovers you can't murder.' Alternatively to try to show Chris that he was 'moving on' -- not from Chris necessarily but just that Toby was adjusting well to being on the outside and sort of perversely trying to convince Chris that he was doing all right. /end c&p

Yeah... that all still sounds right to me. *high-fives*!!

Ozsaur and I were talking about this recently too (while I was writing the fic that sparked this post!) and she thought that Toby wouldn't have been drinking after he was paroled. Even though I wrote it as such, overall I disagreed. I agree with your headcanon: I think he was freaking out about being 'free'; trying to reassure his mom & brother that he was fine; trying to give emotional support to his mom & brother & both of his children, one of whom was basically a stranger (who probably resented being torn away from Gen's parents), one of whom was emotionally traumatized; trying to ignore/deal with the fact that alcohol was now available to him 24/7 (and without consequences like being thrown in the Hole or Sr Pete's extensive, crushing disapproval); that learning to live on the outside again was absolutely not easy and probably not even that fun; and on top of all of that, still in the process of grieving for Gary, for his dad, and for the 'death'/end of his (physical) relationship with Chris. Like. I would be reaching out for the liquor cabinet too.

[vanillalime]

RE: Toby's drinking.... Something that I neglected to mention in this post was another odd moment in the show: when Toby goes to have his "farewell conversation" with Chris right after getting paroled, he tells Chris that he won't really believe he's out until he's "sipping his first martini." Which I guess he says jokingly? But what a WEIRD thing for a recovering alcoholic to say, even as a joke! Which kind of makes me wonder if maybe he wasn't really joking? At the least, he certainly wasn't treating his alcoholism as seriously as he should, despite being on the wagon the last few years (which, like you said, may have been due in large part to the potential negative ramifications he faced in Oz, something he wasn't going to have deal with once he got out).

With all the things that must've been going on with his family and in his personal life, Toby would have to have a pretty steely resolve to resist temptations, and let's face it, "steely resolve" isn't always Toby's strong point.

So, I assumed he went back to drinking, and I could see the guilt about it eating away at him slowly, as he tries to pretend that everything in his life is A-OK. (And I tend to think Toby's internalized frustration about his life was the root of his alcoholism in the first place.) So now he's caught up in this old vicious cycle of drink/guilt/drink, and slipping back into chronic pretending/lying, and *POOF* hey, why yes, I do have a new girlfriend!

Anyway, thanks for bringing the topic up for discussion (albeit inadvertently)! I'm glad to know I'm not alone in my speculations. :-)